Increasing Conversions Using a UX Centrix Approach with Justin Max

Andy Splichal [00:00:00]:

Welcome to the Make Each Click Count podcast. This is your host, Andy Splichal, and we are happy to welcome this week's guest to discuss today's topic, which is increasing conversions using a UX centric approach. Today's guest is the founder of Spark DSG, a digital design and development agency that works to solve complex business problems with measurable outcomes. A big welcome to Justin Max. Hi, Justin.

Justin Max [00:00:27]:

Hey, Andy. Thanks for having me on the podcast. Appreciate it.

Andy Splichal [00:00:30]:

Yeah, we're excited to have you on. Now, your agency is a little bit different. It specializes in using a UX centric approach. But before we dive into all that, can you start for those listeners who may not know, what exactly is a UX centric approach?

Justin Max [00:00:47]:

Yeah, for sure. So UX is just an acronym. It's a user experience. So if your audience is mostly on the marketing side of things and marketing's job is to generate awareness, drive traffic, sell to prospective customers, we're sort of on the other side of that. So really what we're talking about is serving the needs of the user or the customer when they hit a digital experience and really trying to decrease friction in the interaction so that they can complete a task easier, have better satisfaction with an experience, and hopefully come back to that, whatever business it is. And just kind of like I was saying, reduce friction in order to increase metrics and the conversion rates that we're looking to drive.

Andy Splichal [00:01:36]:

So, going back to your bio for a moment, it said that you guys solve complex business problems. What are some examples of those you have solved for clients and how did you measure the outcomes?

Justin Max [00:01:48]:

Yeah, sure. So we don't work in just ecommerce. We work across industry verticals. So we have to be pretty nimble. So the user centric approach that I mentioned, what we're really trying to get at there is we really want to understand what's the customer's objectives, what are their roadblocks, what are they thinking, feeling? What sort of the context? Of their use. And maybe there's some other influencing factors and how that all marries up to business strategy and maybe an existing digital experience. So because we work across industries, we have to think against those things broadly. And then after we understand the business or the challenge that we're trying to solve for, then apply those sorts of principles to that challenge.

Justin Max [00:02:39]:

So we might work with a healthcare firm on a B, two B SaaS product one day and then be working with a fashion or cosmetic retailer or home goods retailer the next day. We're using the same approach across those different industries. So I find that some of our most complicated problems that we're trying to solve are with digital products, especially B to B products. We're typically working with companies that have sort of a niche space, that have a very specific user base. And we really have to dig in the weeds to understand exactly what they're trying to do first and foremost and then who they are and kind of what those concerns are for us. An example would be we did some work with a healthcare company that has hardware installation in hospital settings. So if we're trying to solve like a digital experience problem, we're designing a new system or optimizing a system like that. We're thinking about things like physical space across an entire campus, context of use, of installing software or not software, hardware workflows.

Justin Max [00:03:59]:

And we're thinking not just about the actual user interface, but the context of use and how someone actually has to use this product or the system. So as an example, here one of the things. The goals of this one client's problem was that they were looking to streamline a process that was largely offline, that was very manual, but was also massively complicated. So the main thing they were trying to impact was just time to design and provision and install these systems and test them. And through a UX process of understanding the user, what their needs were and kind of challenges they specifically had, we were able to identify opportunities to create a better digital product. And an example of that was in doing customer or user interviews, we learned that the installers sometimes are tracking like tens of thousands of steps in their day. And you'd think, oh, it's because the campuses are massively huge and it's just natural that they would have all this travel in their day to day workflow. But that wasn't the case.

Justin Max [00:05:14]:

The issue was that the existing system didn't allow for alerts and tasks to be grouped by location. So they would get an alert for something, go take care of it, go to the next piece of hardware, get an alert on their phone or their device, go take care of it, and literally just zigzagging across the campus. So just by understanding that one thing about a user, we're able to introduce a piece of functionality that's pretty simple, which is just colocate alerts and tasks just based off a location in a physical.

Andy Splichal [00:05:50]:

Mean. You had mentioned the UX process. What is that process? What do you go through when looking at a website?

Justin Max [00:05:57]:

Yep. So at Spark we have a process we call Ideas, which is initiate, discover, execute, assess and support five phases of our end to end project lifecycle. In each of those phases we have steps that we have defined, tasks that we would define and kind of getting at that fundamental essential information that influences our decision making is in the discover process. So we are doing things like upfront. We're of course doing stakeholder interviews, we're doing customer interviews, we're doing heuristic audits of existing systems. We're doing persona development and creation, making sure we understand intimately all the folks that are using a system and experience. We might even do some user testing, moderated and unmoderated user testing. Kind of what we're looking to do is really identify Unmet needs, unrealized issues with a system, and we're looking to triage them, improve usability, and then in some cases, surprise and delight with something that wasn't there previously that we uncovered through this investigation that needs to be there.

Andy Splichal [00:07:16]:

So for an ecommerce company, how does a UX provider like yourself differ from a CRO conversion rate optimization company?

Justin Max [00:07:27]:

It's interesting because I get asked that question occasionally and I think for us at Spark, I think the difference is that because we're not specifically just churning on ecommerce, I think we're able to bring some of the things to bear from outside our space or outside the ecommerce space to ecom. So we might be doing similar things in terms of conversion rate optimization. But I find that CRO organizations are, I think, usually running against a set of best practices and there's a little bit of a playbook there and yeah, we can do those sorts of things as well. But I think where we gain a bit of benefit specifically in ecom is when we have unique experiences that maybe there isn't a playbook for or a set of best practices. So an example of this might be well, there's two that come to mind. One is fairly recent, which is we're working with a cosmetics company that has a twice annual promotion and it's a big seller, it's doing great. But through our process of talking with customers, understanding exactly how they were thinking about considering product, how they moved through a workflow, we're talking about a unique experience. It's not just like a PLP page, a PDP page cart.

Justin Max [00:09:00]:

It's a unique sort of micro experience on the site that has its own UI conventions, so there aren't these sort of best practices to lean on. So through that process, we were able to identify specific optimization opportunities and kind of wholesale changes to what they had previously. And just kind of going through that process, we're able to get, I think it was 12% lift on conversion and 41% increase in revenue for that particular.

Andy Splichal [00:09:30]:

Wow, that's great.

Justin Max [00:09:31]:

Yeah, it was really good. It's like a very big success story for us. And then another instance was this is some years ago, but we did work for Uniqlo in Japan. Their mobile experience and I think a CRO company that was US based might struggle with this, but because we're coming at it from our perspective of running through the activities that we like to conduct for UX understanding, we were able to understand in their market. There were kind of considerations that we didn't have in the US. That were just different. So understanding the Japanese consumer there, there was a much greater appetite for content at large and content density that as designers in the US. Would be counterintuitive to how we might lay out specific pages and things and also just how they positioned and sold the product was different than our assumptions and where we might have come from.

Justin Max [00:10:30]:

So things like daily sales and printed promotions were actually a big deal when we were working with them. So just kind of learning about the unique audience and their unique needs in different markets and in different instances I think is kind of how we would be considered a bit different than a CRO.

Andy Splichal [00:10:50]:

Now when you say you're talking to your clients customers is somebody on your team actually picking up the phone and calling them or is it like a hot jar survey that you're collecting the information?

Justin Max [00:11:00]:

We'll do some surveying, but that's largely if we want to get some quick quantitative information. We find that the more insightful moments that uncover things are done through moderated user testing or direct conversation. Because you get a moment to explore the why, not just what their answer is. And also the depth of the answer is typically a bit better when it's done. One to one surveys are great but for us we just find that the depth and quality of the insights are a bit better when we actually reach out and chat with folks and then in some cases we'll even do things like diary studies where we're with a.

Andy Splichal [00:11:45]:

Consumer diary study what is that?

Justin Max [00:11:49]:

So that is where you are tracking a user's journey across multiple days. So it's the time intensive exercise and a bit more costly in terms of consumer the incentives you need to use for the study. But if you have something where you're curious about how they live and breathe with an experience or a brand a diary study can be a great way to kind of get at that evolution of the experience. And I find it we use it a little bit more when there's maybe a native app or something in play where from the moment they learn about it do they download, do they use it for the first time to the 6th, 7th, 8th time? How does their experience with that product change over time and what insights can you learn from that? So that's where like a diary study.

Andy Splichal [00:12:43]:

Can be very helpful and what are you looking to uncover? I mean when you get on the phone and you're talking to your clients customers what kind of questions are you asking? What are you really trying to get at?

Justin Max [00:12:58]:

It depends greatly on the nature of the challenge. But like for instance, let's say we have an ecom retailer who's home goods retailer selling furniture. So that would be a very interesting interview because you'd want to learn about how they think about purchasing a large piece of furniture that they're going to live with that needs to fit into their home, a physical space and what that would be like. What is the mental process of evaluating that in a digital experience to the point where you're comfortable to proceed with a conversion right? And a conversation like that it's going to result in anecdotes and insights that you just wouldn't be able to anticipate putting and put into a survey question. And folks just don't really typically contribute much when you do open ended survey questions. So you can poke and prod a little bit more when you're chatting with a consumer in that way.

Andy Splichal [00:14:11]:

Now, for businesses who are, let's say, can't afford an agency or a fee, would it be safe to say that they should be doing this on their own even?

Justin Max [00:14:22]:

Yes, for sure. And a lot of our customers too, the way that we work with our clients is highly collaborative. So in some cases there might be a UX person on the team internally and that's great, but that doesn't mean we can't provide value and help them out. So it's pretty common. We're working with internal teams and then obviously where there's a gap, we fill that gap. But yeah, retailers, businesses can and should be doing this. Right. Customer insights.

Justin Max [00:15:03]:

It's nothing new. Like we don't own the idea of gathering insight from your customer. I think the difference here is just how you apply that to the thinking about interface design and digital design and development to make the most impact.

Andy Splichal [00:15:17]:

How responsive are customers? I mean, to most of them, they'll jump on the phone, they'll answer some questions or I guess a lot of I think that business owners be worried about that are going to be bothering their customers. But I guess how receptive have you found for customers on taking a survey?

Justin Max [00:15:38]:

Well, there's two ways to run it. One is, and this is a great way is just utilize your database of customers and find highly loyal customers that are willing to and excited to contribute. And they're out there, they exist. Just a level of incentivization is just very helpful and they expect that to some degree. But also we'll recruit certain profiles and demographics and psychographics for this sort of thing too. So there's various tools that you can use for that. And for instance, we use Respondent, which we like quite a bit and yeah, through them we can set up demographic profiles and then screen our questions and things to get at customers when our clients are reticent to reach out to their own contact. Sorry.

Justin Max [00:16:40]:

Sorry, Andy.

Andy Splichal [00:16:40]:

No, I was just wondering AI is everywhere. Have you guys implemented any sort of AI processes in what you do very lightly?

Justin Max [00:16:50]:

It's interesting. I feel like over the next well, not even over the next now, most businesses that I interact with are, I don't want to say scrambling, but trying to figure it out. Trying to figure out like, well, shoot, do we acquire someone? Is there a third party we should be working with? What's the best option for us? And everyone's trying to shake this out. It kind of reminds me, Andy, I'm not sure when you started your career, but I started my career as a designer during the 90s.com bubble and it feels a little bit like that time everyone's not sure they know they should be sort of trying to figure out what to do and where to be in that space. So I think it'll be an interesting progression. I mean, the companies that we work with for sure are looking into this and on our side, candidly, we're using it to support our strategy, work in ways our content creation and promotion for our own agency. And we have a couple of clients who have started some strategic partnerships, and we're involved in the implementation and integration of those partnerships. So it's not something that Spark is going to go out and create an AI tools, but we are being involved in helping implement and figuring out the right ways that they fit into the digital landscape for our retailers or for our clients that we work with.

Andy Splichal [00:18:23]:

Now, you mentioned working on in the late 90s. When did you launch Spark?

Justin Max [00:18:28]:

Oh, 2012.

Andy Splichal [00:18:30]:

Okay.

Justin Max [00:18:31]:

No, 2011. Oh, my gosh, 2011.

Andy Splichal [00:18:33]:

And have there been any business books that you could attribute to your journey as a business owner and entrepreneur?

Justin Max [00:18:42]:

Yeah, this is a very thin, easy, quick read book, but I like it a lot, which is Outcomes Over Outputs by Joshua Seidon. That's a great read. Crossing the Chasm is a good one. I actually got a lot of value of a colleague friend of mine, Jamie Flinchball, just wrote a book called People Solve Problems. He's a lean consultant, but I found as an entrepreneur and a business owner that I took a lot of value out of some of the things that he had to say in there that I applied to my business. But aside from that, I like podcasts. I find actually podcast content fits a bit better into my life. I can more easily kind of integrate that.

Justin Max [00:19:28]:

But yeah, there's a bunch of great books out there, but those are just a couple that come to mind.

Andy Splichal [00:19:33]:

Now, I'm curious, when somebody comes to you guys, do they already know they have a problem? I mean, what's the pain point that makes them figure they got to do something?

Justin Max [00:19:45]:

Yeah, it's funny. Are we a vitamin or are we a painkiller? We're a bit of both, right. The companies that know they should be doing UX work are proactive, and we're a bit of a vitamin. We come in, we help them kind of maintain and optimize, but we do get clients who are like, we don't know what's going on here. We need you guys to investigate this issue and help us sort it out. But if I had to pick one, I think most people come to us because they have an issue that needs sorting out. A lot of times outside of the it's funny in the ecom space, it's a bit more of like, we just want ongoing optimization. We think you guys bring something to the table.

Justin Max [00:20:36]:

We love your design work and we think you will provide value. Our other work where we do digital product work, it's more of a painkiller and it's usually because a technologist has started a SaaS company and then they realize they've never really incorporated design into the process. They've just figured out the features and functionality they need to build and then realize it's not working for folks and they don't know why. They don't know where to start. I think for us it's kind of split based off of what type of company is coming to us.

Andy Splichal [00:21:11]:

So for your ecom clients, do you have a preferred platform that you guys use if you're doing like a redesign?

Justin Max [00:21:19]:

We're in Shopify a lot, yeah, but usually we're fairly platform agnostic both in terms of ecom platforms and CMS systems and things like that. There's a couple we tend to spend more time in. Shopify is the one we're probably spending the most time in. For sure that's shifted over the years but yeah, that would be the case now.

Andy Splichal [00:21:38]:

And do you have a favorite success story of one of your clients you could share?

Justin Max [00:21:43]:

Can I give you like a personal growth business success story? Does it have to be just yeah.

Andy Splichal [00:21:49]:

Sure, that sounds great.

Justin Max [00:21:50]:

Well that opportunity with Uniqlo was massive for me and if there's entrepreneurs out there listening, I'm sure a lot of you have had this moment where kind of luck meets your expertise. And so that was a big win for us. This was a couple a bunch of years ago landing in close a big deal and we were up against some big agencies in an RFP and I didn't think we stood shot just because of some of the agencies that were in the mix. But we did, we won it. There was some combination of what we brought to the table. We put a ton of effort into the pitch and the organization was willing to take a chance on us. That taught me a lot about just going for it. So in a way that was a success story.

Justin Max [00:22:44]:

But then the other piece of that was just being completely intimidated by the opportunity but working the problem. And like I mentioned, there was so much to learn in terms of who our users were, how to work within a Japanese business culture, I'd never done that before. How to handle late nights with the time zone, presenting to the president in their executive boardroom was all very nerve wracking territory. But myself and my team, we just put our heads down and we worked the problem and we used the process that we use for every project, the Caesar centric process to help solve it. And that just gave me confidence moving forward. So that was a success story in that the project went well. It launched, we improved metrics. But more importantly, for me as a solo entrepreneur, it was a reinforcing moment where you're able to land a big project, fulfill it, and then overcome your own insecurities and doubts and things and take your team with you for the ride.

Justin Max [00:24:01]:

So that was a very cool one.

Andy Splichal [00:24:03]:

And how does your guys fee structure work?

Justin Max [00:24:07]:

Yes, actually, we really value long term relationships with the clients, so we have about half of our client relationships are retainer based, and that works really well. We tend to be a true extension of the client's team in those cases. It's usually with larger clients and where we're filling a gap in terms of their capability set. And that's both on the design and technology side. Like I said, about half our retainer base, and that works really well. And we do pride ourselves in doing regular quarterly account meetings, making sure everyone's satisfied that we're accountable for things and that we're planning for things, moving forward, bringing ideas to the table. That's another nice thing about being in a retainer is that we can be very proactive. We're not receiving requests exclusively.

Justin Max [00:25:06]:

We're also saying, hey, you should be considering this. You should do XYZ. Can we put this on the agenda for next month? And then we still get a fair amount of project work, fixed fee work that tends to be more than one off. But we always try and establish and do great work for those clients, so they come back and want to sign on for something a little bit more long term.

Andy Splichal [00:25:30]:

And are the fees custom? I mean, it just depends on what the project is and you figure out what an ongoing retainer is or a one time project work.

Justin Max [00:25:41]:

Yeah, from a fee structure standpoint, we incentivize the retainer. We have a tiered system where the retainer rate is at a pretty good discount to the fixed fee rate. So that's another attractive thing for our clients. We value the fact that they're dedicating or committing to an ongoing retainer, and for that, we reduce our rate for our clients. So that tends to work out well for everyone.

Andy Splichal [00:26:09]:

And who is the perfect client for Spark? If they're out there listening, they should absolutely get a hold of you guys.

Justin Max [00:26:16]:

Yeah, like I was saying, my background is in ecommerce, so we have a number of ecommerce clients. I think we are a great fit for an organization that is at a scale where they're well beyond startup mode, but they don't necessarily want to commit to hiring a full design team or UX team. Typically, that client has creative to handle marketing assets and promotional items. But in between, redesigns needs a team to help optimize, tweak and work with a product owner internally to make sure that the ecommerce machine is humming along. And then on a digital product side, mid market companies are great for us or corporations again, that just don't have the capability set built out and are looking to fix some issue that they know exists, but they just don't know where to start.

Andy Splichal [00:27:20]:

And for your e. Comm work? Are you working with clients on their own websites, like a shopify, or do you venture into Amazon stores?

Justin Max [00:27:30]:

No, their own sites. We don't delve into Amazon Marketplaces at all, so, yeah, it would be working specifically with the retailers.com and whatever ecom platform they might be on and just collaborating with their internal teams to execute.

Andy Splichal [00:27:52]:

And how can an interested listener learn more about working with you guys?

Justin Max [00:27:56]:

Yeah, you can reach out to us via our website, which is sparkdsg.com, or hit us up on our Instagram or even my LinkedIn account, Justin Max. Feel free to reach out. I love getting in conversations with other businesses and even other entrepreneurs who just want to talk shop. I always find a lot of value in just having a connection with folks and hearing their story as well. So any of those channels for sure.

Andy Splichal [00:28:27]:

Well, this has been great. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap it up today?

Justin Max [00:28:31]:

No, this is it, Andy. Thanks. I really appreciate the time. Podcast is great. I've been enjoying the episodes I've been listening to, so thank you very much.

Andy Splichal [00:28:40]:

Great. Well, thanks again for joining us today, Justin.

Justin Max [00:28:43]:

All right. Thanks, Andy.

Andy Splichal [00:28:45]:

For listeners, remember, if you like this episode, please go to Apple podcasts and leave us an honest review. And if you're looking for more information regarding Spark DSG or connecting with Justin, you will find the links in the Show Notes below. In addition, if you're looking for more information on growing your business, check out our Podcast Resource Center, available at podcast.makeeachclickcount.com. We have compiled all the different past guests by show topic and included each of their contact information. In case you would like more information on any of the services I've discussed during previous episodes. Well, that's it for today. Remember to stay safe, keep healthy and happy marketing, and I'll talk to you in the next episode.