Podcast Episode 147 of the Make Each Click Count Podcast features Shaun Brandt, the co-founder of Oddit. Oddit provides simple, to-the-point CRO audits for e-commerce brands wanting to optimize their conversion rate & strengthen brand loyalty.
Learn from Shaun as he shares how companies prioritize spending significant amounts of money on advertising platforms and why they focus on website optimization instead. Find out what Shaun thinks is the biggest quick win on how companies could improve their conversion rates.
Listen to Andy and Shaun as they discuss how AI is being effectively used in their businesses. Find out why an Oddit report is valuable in building a better customer journey.
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To find more information about Shaun, go to:
ABOUT THE HOST:
Andy Splichal is the World's Foremost Expert on Ecommerce Growth Strategies. He is the acclaimed author of the Make Each Click Count Book Series, the Founder & Managing Partner of True Online Presence and the Founder of Make Each Click Count University. Andy was named to The Best of Los Angeles Award's Most Fascinating 100 List in both 2020 and 2021.
New episodes of the Make Each Click Count Podcast, are released each Friday and can be found on Apple Podcast, iHeart Radio, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts and www.makeeachclickcount.com.
00:00 Andy Splichal Welcome to the Make Each Click Count podcast. This is your host, Andy Splichal. We are happy to welcome this week's guest to discuss today's topic, which is using digital marketing to separate from your competition. Today's guest is the co-founder of Oddit. Oddit offers simple solutions for direct-to-consumer brands, looking to boost conversion and strengthen brand loyalty. A big welcome to Shaun Brandt. Hi, Sean.
Shaun Brandt Hey, Andy. How are you doing?
Andy Splichal I'm great. So let's jump right in with website optimization. I'm curious, what made you decide to focus on that specific field?
00:38 Shaun Brandt That's a good question. So I actually, I started out in 2010. I started my first agency. And, you know, at that time we were starting toâ¦ That's when apps were coming a big thing. And I started getting into designing, kind of started out doing this general web design, then got into building sites, then got into designing and building apps and scaled that over almost a decade and became a fairly large team of over 100, you know, building applications. And, you know, over that decade got very burnt out by the agency model. Just, you know, you're constantly just trying to up a customer's retainer and selling them stuff they don't need. And I just kind of got exhausted. I wasn't really doing design anymore, was more doing client management. And took a few years off, got into consulting, just kind of private consulting with clients one-to-one. And ended up doing some advisory work for a performance marketing agency, you know, working with customers kind of in the 50 to 500K a month, ad spend range, Facebook, TikTok, that kind of thing. And was really just advising on helping scale the agency side of things and how to do that from a personnel standpoint, you know, all that fun stuff. And as a UX designer and a product designer, it really just caught me off guard, not having ever been in conversion optimization or conversion rate space to see a performance marketing firm spending that much money on ads every month over the brand, spending that much ad money every month and then spending one one hundredth of it on the site. Because to me, as a UX designer, I'm like, OK, well, that click is amazing. Like, I obviously want the customer to click that ad, but that's step one of ten, right? The other nine steps are on their website. And so for me, as a product designer, I'm like, am I just on crazy? Like, am I missing something? Why are we spending so much money on ads and so little on the website? You know, they build the website, some agency charge them 300K, and then they boom, beautiful. Great. We got a new website. It's awesome. Let's start running traffic. And that mentality to me was just so weird. So we started doing audit reports just as like a kind of a a la carte item for these customers, not branded under audit. And just to help them fix their UX, because it was just so crazy to me that they weren't working on it. And it just started increasing their conversion rates. And to be frank with you, that's when I discovered what CRO stood for. I didn't even know what CRO action stood for before that. And that's kind of how audit was born. Saw the need for it through that and saw the results and just kind of went from there.
03:22 Andy Splichal Yeah, no, interesting. You know, I see all too often where customers or clients are always spending on customer acquisition and they want to know what is the newest marketing channel? Where can I get more traffic? But very seldom or I guess fractionally do they spend on their website? What, in your experience, do you see companies typically spending on customer acquisition, their different marketing versus improving conversion rates on their own website?
03:55 Shaun Brandt But when we end up talking to people, most of our customers have already been spending on ad dollars, like ad dollars on whether it's Facebook, TikTok, email, whatever in the six figure range before they even consider investing in CRO. So a hundred K plus their agency fees in ad spend before they even start interviewing a CRO agency for five K. And we're not a CRO agency. We do one off reports to help, you know, our customers increase their conversion rate through you exchanges. But to me, that most of what we're seeing, it's five percent of what they're spending on ads and their agency, maybe even less that they're that they're actually spending on their website.
04:33 Andy Splichal You know, you made a great point. So you you said most companies that come to you are spending six figures before they even consider a month before before they even consider optimizing their website.
04:44 Shaun Brandt Yeah. And honestly, it's just it's the way that the digital, at least when I say digital, I'm talking just the digital agency space and building websites. It's over the last two decades. All it really has been about is and, you know, I've sat in a lot of pitches for a lot of different agencies. They're strictly pitching to the customer about, you know, making sure the CEO likes how it looks. Never heard conversion rate come up in an agency pitch in my life when they're pitching a website design ever. And I've probably sat in, you know, a thousand of them, like no matter how big I've sat in big New York agencies, none of them building a five hundred thousand dollar website have mentioned the acronym CRO or conversion rate or what's this actually going to do for our site? It's just do you like how it looks? Is it on brand? Oh, I love that little detail. Like that's the whole conversation. And that's what drove me away from that space is it's it's all smoke and mirrors and wasted money. Yeah. You know, fuck, get a free Shopify template. And I see our agency way better off once you get all those learnings. But what works, what's working for your brand? What are the conversion elements on your site that are working for you? When you drive that ad traffic in, take all those learnings and then go invest it in a three hundred thousand dollar Ecom custom site and give that agency all those learnings because they're not doing any research.
06:13 Andy Splichal I mean, that's an interesting point. And you got to remember as a store owner who you are designing it for. You're not designing it for yourself or well, you shouldn't be or is an ego boost. Say I have this great looking website, but you need to be designing it for your customers and knowing who your customers are. So give the listener some quick wins. I mean, what are some things that they should be looking at when considering how they could improve their conversion rates?
08:51 Andy Splichal What do you use to measure site speed? Do you use the Google developer tool, the PageSpeed test, or do you have something more more robust?
09:01 Shaun Brandt We look at multiple. So like Shopify offers a version of it. Google, like you said, PageSpeed is one GT metrics is another. They're all going to give you a little different score. The main thing, honestly, for most customers, unless you're a huge brand, it's like dialing in every single detail and spending a ton of money on it. If you just go to Google PageSpeed Insights and put in your domain, there's going to be a hundred things that's going to list. Those first five are going to get you 95 percent of the way there. Right. So it's it can be a daunting task. It can also be a very simple task if you ignore all the bullshit and all the clutter below that and just focus on, you know, when it shows you the issues you're having, grab those top five that are probably all the problems and just get those done. Right. All of them are going to say the same thing in terms of what's wrong with it. They might just give a different score. But if you're just pulling in those top three or five things that are the issue, you'll fix most of your problems.
09:58 Andy Splichal So you fix site speed, I guess, when you first audit a website, do you have a list of important conversion elements you're looking for? I mean, where where do you go when you first come come across a website and you're doing an audit?
10:17 Shaun Brandt There's definitely a, you know, a kind of side of desk list of things that are, you know, do they have, you know, this, this, this, but more so. It's about as a as let's just say I'm landing on the site fold. Right. I don't know what they make. That's how we try and approach every project is if I land on this site, do I understand what they sell? Do I understand what makes it unique? And do I have easy access to get to it, to buy it? Those are the three main things. Right. And so many customers come to us with problems on conversion and they're driving traffic to their home page or wherever. And the biggest issue is that they're using their favorite brands as benchmarks. Right. They're using their favorite shoe brand as the reference or this Fortune 500 company as a reference because they think big brands do it right. They invest in stuff. How is this not the right way? And the biggest issue with that is those brands can get away with anything because of how much brand equity they have. So Nike can say, just do it. And people will buy shoes even though they have no idea what the hell just do it means. You can't do that because you don't have the brand equity. Most 99 percent of Shopify stores don't have any brand equity. They don't have there's no such thing as them being a household name anywhere. And so you have to speak extremely clearly, tell the user exactly what you make, exactly what makes it important or special or unique, and tell them exactly what your current customers love about it. You know, you don't see that on Fortune 500 sites because they don't need to do it. And so benchmarking against those is just, in my opinion, a horrible idea. But that's probably the biggest thing is clarity. Right. We're when we look at a website for the first time, we're looking for clarity. Is this brand explaining what they do, what makes it great, what people love about it clearly?
12:05 Andy Splichal I mean, I think you just answered my next question. I usually ask what makes a company successful in digital marketing space. And I think you just answered clarity. But is there is there anything beyond that?
12:18 Shaun Brandt I think when it comes to digital marketing and going from that, you know, one, two, three step through that click and add, get to the site purchase. Clarity is definitely the answer still, but it is more so like if let's just say every every every user that lands on the site, 99.9% of the traffic is from paid ads campaigns, which some of our customers are. And the ad is always saying what you do, what makes it great, you know, things that you I'm saying. If the ad is always saying that and the customers are always coming from that ad, your site can be more lenient, right? Your site can be more flexible because you know they're coming from an ad that told them what you do. So you can be more marketing jargon focused when they get there. So it's really clarity on that that funnel, right? Like, is the ad telling the start of the story? If it's not, make sure the site tells the start start of the story and just always be conscious of that, right? As you grow, you're probably going to get more organic traffic and it's slowly going to become more balanced, organic and paid. And then your site does need to tell the story no matter what. So it's just always being conscious of that. And to your point, clarity.
13:35 Andy Splichal So during Covid, I mean, it's no secret. I mean, e-commerce changed. It is accelerated to a huge level. I mean, people got comfortable ordering some people that weren't comfortable before, now more comfortable ordering from home. Some people don't even go to the store anymore. They're just got used to ordering online. And like the convenience. Yeah. Where do you see e-commerce going over the next 12 to 18 months?
14:01 Shaun Brandt Oh, man, that's a good question. I think we're going to see some really unique stuff in the ad space and marketing space simply due to artificial intelligence and the role it's starting to play where you can almost start to generate creative without art direction, without a photographer, without anything. You don't even need the products. You can start to create your ads based on that and probably be seeing a lot more different ads running at the same time in terms of testing what's working and what's not. Same thing with the actual copywriting of ad strategies. In terms of storefronts, I think we're going to see a lot of the same thing, whether it's through customer service, chat on site, helping people get to the right products and find their way through the site. I think we're going to see a I start playing more and more and more of a role there, maybe not within 12 to 18 months, but we'll start to see it, I think. And then same with on the product front. I think the one thing that we've seen probably the most over Covid is that. Shopify's ability to create stores really quickly, like giving customers the ability to create stores quickly is step one. But the ecosystem of creating a brand and a product has also become really accessible, right? It's become really easy to find suppliers and 3PL and packaging people and branding people. And all of these things have become easier. I don't mean that in like a that's an easy thing to do, but I can get branding through an AI thought, I can get branding through fiber in a week. I can get branding through a hundred thousand dollars. There's so many options for every piece of building a product and a brand now, including the site. And so I think we're just going to see an insane amount of crap out there of just because it's so easy to launch now. It's you can find a product that's doing well on Amazon. It doesn't have a great DTC presence yet and spin it up in four weeks. And now doing ads and not to say I'm not downplaying how hard it is to run a business. I'm just saying it. It's become so easy to do so now. And accessibility to all this has become just so low hanging that to me, we're just going to see so much more competition, but not in a good way. I think it's going to be a lot of crap. And it's going to become really hard for consumers to filter through it and figure out which ones are actually good products and which ones are just. Fly by night, they'll be around 12 months and then the store will just be fine.
16:25 Andy Splichal Yeah, you know, I'm curious about the AI perspective. We've been using it with our agency on writing product descriptions for Amazon and really using keywords and merging that in. I mean, that's so much quicker than a copywriter or, you know, I mean, you just couldn't do what you could do with AI on the Amazon advertising site. How are you using it as far as conversion optimization on a website? Is it the product descriptions?
17:01 Shaun Brandt I mean, how are you using it? So how we've just started, I mean, our team is using it in copywriting like every other company as little tests and helpers. But how we started to explore how it can really change our business is in. Helping us reference back a lot of our recommendations to data trends and things that are happening. So when we make a U.S. change to someone's now navigation, for instance, and we want to test or see, well, where can we prove this? We can go cross reference using chat, GPT with Baymard Institute and find a thousand tests of. What happened in the same scenario with the mobile navigation and validate what we're recommending? There's a lot of ways that we're working on plugging that into our entire kind of design system and how we approach analyzing websites. We're also seeing tools pop up that just scan your website and deliver conversion ideas, right? Is it, you know, game changing yet? No. But I think we're probably not that far off from just putting in your domain and your credit card for 100 bucks and it spits out an audit report. I think we're not that far, not us, but I'm saying, you know, companies out there that are really investing in it. I don't think we're that far off from seeing that.
18:21 Andy Splichal Yeah. You know, you made an interesting point there again, is it seems that AI right now, you almost have to cross reference it to something. I know for keywords we use, you know, we have keyword tools that we use and then we cross reference. Yeah. And you're using a cross reference to make it effective. So it's not quite the magic box of typing it in and getting a result yet. But it sure is getting there.
18:45 Shaun Brandt Yeah, no, I think we'll probably see two phases of how AI affects this space. And the first will be companies that are hiring agencies that are using it. Well, right there, they're putting their trust in agencies that are being very upfront with the fact that, hey, we're keeping your costs down by removing all of our bloating and employees, and we're going to use AI for some of this. And then the second phase will be. The tools will evolve to a point where you won't hire an agency. You'll just have AI tools integrated into your own ecosystem and you'll fire your agency. We're probably a long way from doing that. But for now, it's really just finding an agency partner or partners for any part of your business that are using it in a way that you feel is effective. So let me ask you, I mean, you have a lot of experience, you've built agencies, grown agencies. How has there been any books out there that you could attribute to your success and growth? I would say the only one that I always come back to, and I've actually one of the few books that I've read multiple times, is when I was first getting started was right when Basecamp was becoming a big thing, which Basecamp, anyone that's not familiar with, is kind of like one of the first project management tools that really had a focus on UI, UX, and made it just easier for teams to collaborate. And it was designed by a company called 37 Signals. And the founder there, Jason Freed, I think it's Freed, not Friday. Jason Freed is just a really smart guy. And he wrote a book called Rework. And it's really kind of a playbook on how to just keep it simple when you're thinking about starting a business. And when you're going through that first year of business, just not being so stressed out and not focusing on all these little fine details that really don't matter once you're five years in and you look back, you're like, oh, man, none of that mattered. And so it's just a really great kind of, in my opinion, entrepreneur's Bible of helping you keep things simple and not overthinking things when you're starting out. And it's written in a way that, you know, you could probably read it in a day if you had to, like every page is pretty simple and short. It's really to the point. So, yeah, I can't recommend it enough for entrepreneurs starting out.
21:13 Andy Splichal Great. So let's flip and talk about your agency now, your current one. How long have you been around? What services are you offering and how does it help increase conversion for your clients?
21:25 Shaun Brandt Yeah, so, I mean, Oddit as a company, I wouldn't even we don't consider it an agency. We actually consider ourselves an anti agency. The reason for that is that we don't do ongoing engagements. We don't allow customer feedback loops. We don't actually allow customer input, which is pretty much the exact opposite of how we ran our agencies. Part of that is self, you know, we wanted it was beneficial to us. We don't want we didn't want to deal with clients anymore. But part of it was we saw a huge trend in the agency space where most of the things coming out of companies, sorry, coming out of agencies from an end product. Were whatever the client wanted. And in most cases, that's not the actual right answer. Right. Finding out, you know, getting feedback from a leadership team of a company to change aspects of the U.S. that had nothing to do with actual conversion rates and more to do with, you know, the CEO likes to color yellow, whatever, just has no value to a company. So we've kind of pushed back on that model. And, you know, basically, you either listen to us or we don't want to work with you. If you're not willing to just let us go wild and do what we want, we don't take on the project. We don't we don't do the audit. So from a from an agency standpoint, it's tough for me to to call us that word. But we do work with clients, about 30 to 40 clients a month right now. We essentially what our service does is we go in, we red mark up your website. So team goes through, mark off everything in terms of here's what we think needs to change. Here's why. Here's what it should look like from a U.S. standpoint to increase conversion rate. We then deliver that in a what can be a 60 page report showing the before and after of the site, explaining all the rationale of why we made the changes. And then we deliver also the design files for everything.
23:26 Andy Splichal So the main big difference between our are you I'm sorry, are you implementing the changes as well or is it just recommendations?
23:34 Shaun Brandt Strictly recommendations and design. Again, more of a personal choice than a business decision. The second that we would get into development, it would have to be ongoing engagement. And we really want to keep our product as succinct and simple as possible. So we have really great partnerships with development partners for shop for every different platform. Same with A.V. testing. We have great partners for more traditional CRO and A.V. testing that we introduce our clients to. I would say the main change in the deliverable from us to an agency is that when we deliver a design and you get your audit report back, you're effectively going to see a brand new website in that design. The difference is that we actually recommend you don't change at all overnight. We recommend and we position it and we show it to you. Pick your pieces, pick which sections are most important to you. Implement them over time. If you have the traffic, A.V. test the changes. If you don't have the traffic, just be careful. Right. Like not every company has 100,000 unique users. Want the A.V. testing every change. So be mindful. Don't change your website overnight. Don't just flip a switch and redo the whole thing. So the approach and the outputs and most customers feels like an agency engagement, but it is quite different from a day to day functionally. Obviously, they don't get any input, but the output as well and how we position it is quite different.
24:58 Andy Splichal So I mean, I think so you get an audit, but it's just it's a one time project with you, you deliver your deliverable and then you're done.
25:09 Shaun Brandt And we're done. We have, I mean, we do have a ton of returning customers. So we have pretty great rapport with our customers and relationships.
25:18 Andy Splichal Well, that yeah, I mean, that was going to be my next step is how do you, how are you able to track your success?
25:21 Shaun Brandt Yeah. And honestly, it's again, something I've learned from my, you know, just doing it for so long in the agency space and kind of how we took this approach was most agencies find success without ever having any proof. They launched the website. They don't really track any metrics. Some other agency does that and that's their job and how their success is measured. So how we actually measure success is strictly customer feedback and return customers and refunds. We have a pullback money back guarantee policy. If you're not satisfied with the end products, we just give you your money back. We're done fifty seven hundred audits now and we've had five refunds. So it's a really high success rate from that standpoint. And, you know, in some cases, that's customers having crazy conversion rate changes. Right. Like I had a customer call yesterday and their conversion went from two to five percent. So one hundred fifty percent increase after doing their audit. And then we've had customers that don't see a move or they see a fraction, you know, a percent move. But they're so happy with the value of the report, the education within the report, because it's a much different output than a site redesign. We're actually explaining every change, the mindset behind it, why it makes sense or why we think it makes sense. And so a lot of our customers look at these reports as education for their own team. Right. So that when they're making a new landing page or they're changing something on their site, they're just thinking of it a little bit differently because we've explained it in a very specific way. How many people follow through and implement everything that you recommend? That's a great question. I wish I had the answer to. We there's too many customers and we are such a small team that we don't like. We're not going in checking on every customer site and like, oh, what did they change? What did they not change? And sadly, that's part of how we keep our our fees down quite low is we don't do any account management. But I would say that one of every two reports that goes out, they make they change everything, like every recommendation we made. Most of them over time. Right. So like I have customers. We started two years ago. We have customers that are still now testing things that we recommended. Right. And they're just doing it slowly over time. And then we have customers that change the whole site overnight, even though we recommend not to. And then the other half, I would say, pick and choose. Right. That some of the brands we deal with are really big brands. So like, you know, when we do an audit for Buck Mason, you know, there's very specific aesthetic, a very specific, an entire marketing team, design team. So when they see us pitch them 70 changes, they're going through that in meetings. And yeah, this one makes sense to scrap that one. Right. They're probably pick and choose. Twenty percent. And again, that's the beauty of how we present these things. It's not like you have to do them all right. If it's position, like all these little things are going to have an effect, some more, some less. But again, our main goal is to get the customer thinking differently about how they approach these things.
28:34 Andy Splichal And how do you charge? Is it one price for all? Is it based on the size? I mean, what is the pages on the website? I mean, how does that work?
28:44 Shaun Brandt Yeah, so we have two ways of charging. One is by section. So we have what's called a quick win ten pack where you just let our team go in and we pick out ten sections of the site that we think are the lowest hanging fruit that are going to help conversion. So a section, for example, would be your homepage header or your mobile navigation or your cart. Those are each a section. So there'll be 10 of those. And then the more robust full report is you pick pages. So I want you to look at my home page, my product page and my collections page. We do not look at every page on the site ever. We look at conversion focus pages like those and we look at the template of them. So if you have 100 products or one product, we're only looking at the product page template, not all your products. And in that case, we charge per page. So you can buy a one page audit report, two page, three page speaking pages on the site, not the report output. We've had customers, everyone customer that's bought 16 pages of their site now. Right. They just keep back and adding pages. And in that sense, we have kind of an ongoing engagement. But yeah, we have a lot of return customers that buy one or two pages and they're like, you know, they're blown away. So they every time they launch a landing page, we audit it. Every time they launch a campaign, we go through it. And what's the pricing for those two different programs? So the 10 pack is 1650. The output is, you know, all those sections redesigned and, you know, roughly a 25 page report and then the full report started 2800 for a two page report. So most customers, they buy home page and product page. And then it's 750 per page after that. So if you want to add your quiz flow, you want to add a subscription page or whatever, it's just 750 every page you add.
30:38 Andy Splichal And I didn't hear you mentioned cart. Do you get into the cart quite a bit or no?
30:43 Shaun Brandt Yeah, it's a huge part of our, I would say 99% of our customers. We audit their cart regardless, just because it's where there's so much lift. Right. And so in the full reports, regardless how many pages you buy, we always fully redesigned part empty cart, full cart, full cart, cart with items in it.
31:04 Andy Splichal And then we also redesign your navigation in full reports. What's the biggest mistake somebody can make in their shopping cart?
31:12 Shaun Brandt Oh man. Um, decision paralysis, um, and clutter that we have so many card experiences where it's like someone's clicked on the cart to check out and they're jit, the cost that's the site just overwhelms them with interactions and things to do and here's an offer. Want to read more reviews, upsell seven different pay options. And it's just not that the consumer is stupid and they don't know to just hit checkout, but it's just a sensory overload, right? It's like, if you imagine going to the checkout at target or the grocery store, right? There's you're in that aisle and there's always the little upsells, right? Like pick some gum, whatever they're very passive, right? It's, they're not hitting you in the face. You don't have to get them. The way most people approach the cart experience is like, they want, they want to increase the area of you so much that they're just hitting you in the face with it and be like going through that line and target, and there's actually a guy there trying to sell you the gum, like holding it in your face, like, Hey, you need this gum, right? Like by that, by the time you get to the till, you're just pissed off at target and you just want to leave. I don't want, I don't even want the blanket I was going to buy because you just pissed me off with this gum. So I think that's the biggest thing is like, obviously yes, let's use the cart to increase AOV or, um, build trust if we can, but like, you have to find a balance, you cannot put so much stuff in there that they just get overwhelmed. And again, decision paralysis.
32:48 Andy Splichal And who is the perfect client for your organization?
32:54 Shaun Brandt You noticed I didn't say agency. I appreciate that. I, that's a good question. I would say the most calming conversation I have at the start of a sales call is the customer has finally found their footing on ad spend. They feel like they're finding some success there. They're starting to drive more traffic and finding success in their ad spend. And now they want to optimize the website to, to benefit that even further. So size and spend really don't matter. It's if in your internal business, you're finding success, regardless of ad spend in driving more traffic to the site, it's time to optimize the site. And how can an interested listener learn more about working with me? You can head to oddit.co. So oddit.co. You can follow us on Twitter. We post tons of UX insights and ideas on there. The Twitter handle is it's audit. You can follow me personally, @brandtify. So @brandtify. If you do head to our site, we do offer free quick wins. So that 10 pack has 10 kind of sections of your site redesign. When we're talking to brands that don't quite understand how we approach things, we do a free version. So if you want to just go put your domain in the site, we send you back a four page report with one cross section redesign with all the rationale.
34:23 Andy Splichal Is that done with the AI? It's all humans. Well, this has been great. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap it up today?
34:31 Shaun Brandt No, I'm good. That was that was fun.
34:34 Andy Splichal Great. Well, thanks for joining us.
Shaun BrandtThanks, Andy.
Andy Splichal For listeners, remember, if you like this episode, please go to Apple Podcasts and leave us an honest review. And if you're looking for more information on connecting with Sean or his agency audit, you'll find the links in the show notes below. In addition, if you're looking for more information on growing your business, check out our podcast resource center available at podcast.makeeachclickcount.com. We have compiled all of our different past guests by show topic and included each of the contact information in case you would like more information on any of the topics I've discussed in previous episodes. Well, that's it for today. Remember to stay safe, keep healthy and happy marketing. And I'll talk to you in the next episode.